[TF-AIDN] Variant principles
Tarik Merghani
tarik at isoc.sd
Thu Sep 8 11:03:44 CEST 2016
Me too .. just connected and listen to the last words ... As I had a
meeting on that time ...
Tarik Merghani
On 9/7/2016 3:44 PM, Hazem Hezzah wrote:
>
> I connected too, but about 20min late.
>
> Seems you had already left.
>
> Regards,
>
> //Hazem Hezzah//
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*tf-aidn-bounces at meswg.org [mailto:tf-aidn-bounces at meswg.org]
> *On Behalf Of *Sarmad Hussain
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 07 September, 2016 14:26
> *To:* Abdalmonem Tharwat Galila; TF-AIDN Mailinglist
> *Subject:* Re: [TF-AIDN] Variant principles
>
> Hi Abdalmonem,
>
> It was just Ahmed and me on the UASG call so we agreed to postpone it
> till later. Fahd is requested to reschedule it.
>
> Regards,
> Sarmad
>
> *From:*Abdalmonem Tharwat Galila [mailto:agalila at mcit.gov.eg]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 07, 2016 7:21 AM
> *To:* Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain at icann.org>; TF-AIDN Mailinglist
> <tf-aidn at meswg.org>
> *Subject:* RE: [TF-AIDN] Variant principles
>
> Sorry I was out-off-power so I miss the last words of today's meeting ?
>
> I connected to UA meeting, but no one there !!! any idea ?
>
> Thnx
>
> All the Best,
>
> Abdalmonem Tharwat Galila
>
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> *From:*tf-aidn-bounces at meswg.org <mailto:tf-aidn-bounces at meswg.org>
> [mailto:tf-aidn-bounces at meswg.org] *On Behalf Of *Sarmad Hussain
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 07, 2016 5:14 AM
> *To:* TF-AIDN Mailinglist
> *Subject:* Re: [TF-AIDN] Variant principles
>
> Thank you Meikal.
>
> While discussing the principles, a fundamental decision we face is
> whether we do language or script level variant analysis for language
> based tables.
>
> As a summary of our previous call, for those who could not join, here
> are the salient points:
>
> 1.We started with Root Zone LGR principles for Arabic script
>
> 2.The first principle, which says that two code points with identical
> shape in any one position will be considered a variant, was agreed for
> inclusion.
>
> 3.The second principle initially said that two code points were
> variants if they are considered stylistic variation (e.g. 0643 كand
> 06AA ڪ) by the script community. It was discussed whether the
> principle should be changed so that the code points are variants if
> they are considered stylistic variation by the relevant language
> community as we are now considering language tables. It was argued
> that even if the label is generated by the language table, it could be
> viewed by the script community and thus possibly cause phishing.
> However, the target audience of language level tables is generally the
> community which is proficient in the relevant language. The members
> generally though that the language level definition was more
> appropriate in the language level LGRs, however, further discussion
> was needed to finalize the scope of the principle.
>
> 4.For the next principle which considers two code points which are not
> stylistic variations but are still considered variants for a language
> (e.g. 0627 اand 0623 أ). The discussion continued on whether this
> should be limited to language level analysis or should a script level
> analysis be incorporated.
>
> 5.Based on the discussion, it was suggested (by Meikal) that it may be
> useful to look at it slightly differently, as core vs. non-core
> variants (see his email below).
>
> We will continue the discussion in our call scheduled soon.
>
> Regards,
> Sarmad
>
> *From:*tf-aidn-bounces at meswg.org <mailto:tf-aidn-bounces at meswg.org>
> [mailto:tf-aidn-bounces at meswg.org] *On Behalf Of *Meikal Mumin
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 24, 2016 7:34 AM
> *To:* TF-AIDN Mailinglist <tf-aidn at meswg.org <mailto:tf-aidn at meswg.org>>
> *Subject:* [TF-AIDN] Variant principles
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> during our discussion today we spoke about variant principles, and
> wether we should keep or drop some of the principles used at the root
> zone. During our discussion we were saying that, since we are
> developing language tables, we should not be overly conservative, and
> try to apply language level variants, and not script level variants,
> where possible.
>
> However we arrived at a point where we were discussing the third
> principle form our original Root Zone proposal of section 2.3:
>
> The following principles for defining variants were agreed upon by the
> members of GP:
>
> 1. Two code points are variants if they are visually identical in
> any one of the four positions/forms (isolated, initial, medial or
> final form).
> 2. Two code points are variants if they are visually similar and
> if at least a sub-set of the Arabic script-using community employs
> those two code-points as stylistic variations of one another
> within the calligraphic tradition.
> 3. Two code points are variants if they are visually similar to
> the degree that at least a sub-set of the Arabic script using
> community may consider the two as stylistic variations of each
> other, even where such consideration is not part of the
> established calligraphic tradition.
> 4. Two code points are variants if they only differ in their dot
> orientation, i.e. where those dots, which are used as part of the
> letter, are rotated but their count and placement (above or below)
> does not change. Dot orientation is used in calligraphic tradition
> to fit dots in tighter spaces.
> 5. Code points representing the same letter in Western (African)
> Arabic orthography and Conventional Arabic orthography are
> considered variants, as Arabic script readers from the two
> orthographic traditions may confuse such letters. The two sets are
> given below.
> 6. Variant sets are symmetric (if A is a variant of B, then vice
> versa is also true) and transitive (if A is a variant of B and B
> is a variant of C, then A is also a variant of C).
>
> As examples for point three we were using the cases of waw and waw
> hamza. I think all users of Arabic script are familiar with waw,
> hamza, and the combination of the two and would recognize those as
> variants.
>
> However there are also other types of variants, which are probably not
> known to all users, such as 06D2 (Urdus yeh barree) as a variant of ya'.
>
> So I was trying to point out that if we talk about language tables, we
> need to take into consideration the development of Arabic script.
> There are variants all users are familiar with, since they occur at
> the core or the basis of the script, which is certainly Fusha or
> Classical Arabic and the writing of the Qur'an.
>
> However there are variants which are less global to the script zone
> and which are established more in single or few languages. I think we
> can treat these variations as local and should not over-apply them to
> other language tables.
>
> So when we are dealing not with the entire script community as one, as
> in the case of the root zone, I think distinguishing script variants
> from language variants is not sufficient, but we need to distinguish
> rather between core variants and non-core variants. Core variants
> should be considered for all language tables, while non-core variants
> need to be considered only for those language tables where they occur.
>
> I hope this is understandable, since I came up with this distinction
> ad hoc.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Meikal
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TF-AIDN mailing list
> TF-AIDN at meswg.org
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